Babies and femmos.

February 24, 2008

Being a non-babied up person living in a world where it seems like everyone has spawned has afforded me the opportunity to observe things without being too emotionally involved. I have my pet peeves with how mums and dads behave just like I have my pet peeves by how ordinary everyday people behave. In fact, one might argue that I have a lot of pet peeves. Oh well, I’m peevey – you really got a problem with that?

A little issue has arisen lately in baby-land and I have to say, it’s given me more peeves than ever thought possible. I’m talking about how people react to the weight of babies. Now I realise that weight is probably the most important way that one can distinguish how healthy a baby is but I’m not talking about that. It’s the language that people use.

My friend S’s little miracle (really, he actually is – spend first couple of months at the Children’s hospital and really was touch and go for a while there) has been growing in leaps and bounds since he was released from the hospital. Really he is one of the cutest babies in the world. He’s one of those babies that strangers will boldly approach and want to hold. Things started off a little rough for the poor guy but now he’s doing well. In fact when people see him how they ALWAYS comment about what a big boy he is, and how chubby he is getting and …hey maybe mum should be putting him on a little feeding restriction. The thing is little N is not like those big babies you see on Phil Donohue where the baby is actually half the size of mum at 1 year of age and looks basically like an adult in diapers (though, I might be confusing this with a whole other episode of Donohue). Little N is in fact precisely in the 50th percentile for his weight. He’s the epitome of normality. He’s not 1 percent below or above he’s just right. Meanwhile mothers of babies born on the 15th percentile are commenting about what a chubbster N is – not in a nice way either – in an I’m slightly worried about your baby way – patronising, utterly patronising. Like as if being born thin and still thin is somehow better than than being normal and healthy.

The reason why it’s a peeve of mine is that I can see where this is leading. We already have this preoccupation with children’s weight and the so-called obesity crisis in children. I wish I could link to an entry that “pubby” wrote about this issue but he’s taken his blog off-line – but he also asked whether these figures were sincere because he hadn’t noticed that suddenly all these kids were supposedly fat. I work with kids. I see kids everyday and there is probably 1 per class who is overweight. IF THAT. I don’t have any this year at all. In fact I’m looking at all the children I know who started school this year and there is not ONE who would even be considered chubby – that’s almost 100 new children! Figures point to something like 40% of children being fat but from what I’ve seen it’s actually about 5% which is called a NORMAL DISTRIBUTION of fat folks. Maybe it’s 10% in some areas…yes, more concerning but still, hardly an epidemic! I don’t know if figures are being inflated or whether the way we measure fat is right off the scale (pun intended) but if it’s an epidemic then I don’t bloody see it at all.

The point is the weight obsession starts with babies. All these mothers (let’s face it, mostly mums) are obsessed with talking about the weight of their own children but not only that, I sense some smugness and defensiveness about weight, depending on where on the percentile the baby falls. Once I commented on how F’s baby J had grown into a big boy. I hadn’t seen him in about 3 months and he was like a new child. So what, he got big! Big deal, it’s great, it’s called growing. But I got flicked with the end of the wrath stick quick smart by F who snapped that actually he’s only on the 30th percentile now and not big at all. Okay, sorry didn’t think I was suggesting that your baby was a sumo wrestler but hey, whatever.

Incidentally why is it so wrong to say that a female baby is a “big strong girl”. Ever try saying that one? It’s like you’re saying “hey I’ve just noticed that your daughter is a big fat dyke. I can see that she’s a breath away from letting her body hair get to unflattering lengths and start listening to angry girl rock” I thought, growing was supposed to be a good thing! Maybe not in girls.

In other news concerning dirty femmo stuff, I was intrigued by a column in Sunday’s Age by Angela Pippos “What’s Wrong with Being a Fashionista Feminist Anyway?” where she addresses just how diverse feminists are in this era. She also says

I’m a feminist. Was that so hard?
It’s really not a big deal. I simply believe that women should be given the same opportunities as men. Throw me in in the river and see if I float. It’s hardly radical but, in my experience, any mention of the “f” word in male company can bring on a type of behaviour often seen in a David Attenborough documentary, followed by a sudden attack of mundane questioning”.

She goes on to list a few examples of questioning she is immediately dealt by affronted men “Do you expect men to open doors for you?” “Do you want a man to pay for dinner on a first date?” etc. You know the typical questions asked of femnos that makes everyone want to stab their eyes out. What really interests me about her column is the underlying question for me about feminism. Why is it still a dirty word? Yes, I’m being serious. In all my years of being a feminist I’ve never met one who hates men. I’ve never met one who burns her bra. I’ve never met one who spends all night planing to picket the local men’s club or any of the other stereotypes that are prescribed to so called ..here is comes “feminazis”. Do I know lesbian femmos? Of course. Does that mean ALL feminists are gay? Do I know femmos who are frustrated by the status quo and frustrated by some perceptions perpetrated by men. Hell yes, does that mean that they are frustrated with men in general? Pssssh, I don’t think so. I hate that type of generalising of feminists that happens but actually has little grounds in reality.

I don’t know about you but when I hear the old “you’re a man hater” (often comes in a feminist type entry) and it’s been written here on this journal as well me reading it on so many other feminist blogs that I’ve lost count – I often think that the person writing it either has shit for brains, doesn’t actually KNOW any feminists or rather…doesn’t KNOW any women AT ALL or that maybe..just maybe THEY don’t really like women all that much themselves, or feel threatened by them expressing an opinion – whatever. The fact that I *am* a feminist and I don’t actually know ANY feminists who hate men NOR do I hate them myself sort of makes me wonder why on earth that’s a phrase that is so easily thrown around by others when confronted with someone who claims to be a feminist? I mean I always hear about these so-called feminists who are supposed to hate men, usually it comes in the form of “yeah I know a feminist who hates men” but you know..it’s sort of like an urban myth to me. Have you heard the one about the lady with the boil on her face that exploded and 50 tiny spiders came out? Yeah, that common. If anything feminists have so much problem in appearing a unified group with unifying beliefs in the first place that *men* aren’t even the issue. It’s women and what women think that is more of an issue.

Perhaps it’s that feminist discourse is centered around the fact that things are not quite right in the world of woman. That there are certain issues that affect our gender and those issues maybe be life threatening or indeed socially confining to women. Maybe there’s some resentment too, that women get the focus for this type of discourse? The fact that they are discussed might be a little too confronting for some people and confused with hate – when really it’s not about hate at all, it’s about getting answers and asking WHY does this happen to women? Is that a wrong question to ask? I certainly don’t think so. It does NOT negate the FACT that things happen to men too and that is an important point. That in fact we are all individuals who have shit happen to us at some stage or another and that there are issues for men that are just as concerning that in fact SHOULD be discussed too. They should be discussed by the same people that are complaining that are sick of hearing about women’s issues and say that yeah, men have issues too can’t you see that? Well, dude, discuss away! Indeed, asking why the world is a certain way is not about hating anyone. It’s about trying to get answers about how things are and perhaps start discourse that will affect change. One can only hope anyway.

I know that discussions about rape, prostitution, maternity leave and domestic violence gets a lot of backs up, especially with men but the fact of the matter is that these things DO happen and they DO happen mostly to women and the fact that we make up more than half the population means that it’s something that everyone should be worried about. These are things that SHOULD be discussed widely and without refrain. It happens and the fact that it happens disturbingly often to one gender over another is a cause for feminist discourse. Live with it! I’ve read so many “anti-feminist” blogs (mostly written by anonymous people with anonymous comments – just goes to show doesn’t it?) that will reference one article where a woman has beaten her husband in a show of domestic violence. Yes it happens and this is horrible. I don’t want to diminish that – but the anti-feminist blogger will then say (and this happens in almost 100 percent of all anti-feminist bloggers) something along the lines of “and now you see why I refuse to get involved with all women. Women are evil etc etc”. This is in direct opposition to most feminist blogs which takes issue on women’s issues in society and how that affects us and in fact are a celebration of female achievement in the arts and culture. They are positive places that actually reserve any condensation of men to specific examples ie: THIS MAN said something not quite right about women. THIS MAN is wrong. Whereas the anti-feminist blogs that I’ve read are all about generalising one act to mean *all* women and being defensive about it too. Perhaps I’ve yet to come across a anti-feminist blog that is about being male positive instead of female negative. I’m know that there are some feminist blogs that really ARE venomous about a lot of things too, including men but definitely not the popular ones. The popular feminist blogs are generally very political places that invite discussion by men and indeed a lot of them have a dedicated male following too.

For the record I have read many male written gender positive blogs that have nothing to do with anti-feminism – they don’t shy away from bringing up issues that are specific to men either! They are great and there should be more of them. They write about male and female issues with sex, violence and everything in between and they are so great because they don’t fall into that age old trap of ‘what I admire about women is their breasts, bum, legs, they look beautiful, they smell beautiful’ – which is quite typical in what DOES tend to get written about women from a male perspective. I mean that kind of blog is great and all but male blogs that go beyond that REALLY need to be applauded for being so great – and they’re not great because I agree with them, because I don’t always, they’re great because they are truthful without falling into “all feminists are bitches” type rhetoric.

Considering that not all feminists are the same, nor do any of the old stereotypes stand up why is it that the F-word is still a dirty one?

Anyway, on to Musical Monday in this haphazard post of mine. Of course, let’s just complete the entry with a reference to Kat Bjelland; an artist I’m pretty much so in awe of I can’t quite figure out the right words. She looks like an angel but has the voice of a terrifying demon. That’s the best I can come up with. In the early days she cavorted around with Courtney Love and Jennifer Finch experimenting in a couple of bands before all went their separate ways and all became highly influential artists in their own right, with their own bands. I sigh here as I make the distinction and say they were ‘female centered’ bands – grrl rock if you will. Why? Oh because I’ve featured many, many bands who have all male members and sing about manly things but never distinguished them by saying ‘all male’ or ‘male centered’. It’s funny how these distinctions work in rock for women as opposed to men but there you have it.

Babes in Toyland had been around for a good many years before I got into them. I was completely taken with Kat Bjelland and in particular her rock operatic meets screaming banshee type singing voice.

She was a cheerleader in high school by the way.

A cheerleader AND a dirty femmo too. Oh my god, is your mind about to explode? Yes, it’s true, us dirty femmos aren’t just one type of person. I guess, that was my whole point. Mothers can be feminists. Hot girls can be feminists. Women who love men can be feminists. Scientists can be feminists. Radio personalities can be feminists. Men can be feminists. Cheerleaders can be feminists. It’s not just one type of person. And for the record I’ve read many a comment implying that those people mentioned above CAN’T be feminists – like mums can’t be feminists. ha! Well I’m linking right here to a GREAT entry by a femmo mum who outlines some great points about how to raise your daughter a feminist and you know what? The initial question about ‘how do I raise my daughter a feminist?’ came from a bloke. How’s that for breaking down a few barriers. Yes folks, it’s not actually about man hating. Sorry to disappoint – on with the music.

Bruise Violet – Babes In Toyland (apparently not about Courtney Love..but I doubt it! lol).

Sweet 69 – Babes in Toyland

23 Responses to “Babies and femmos.”

  1. Amanda Says:

    Fabulous post Mez. I don’t quite know what to add, you’ve summed up the most infuriating parts of struggling as a feminist in this country (and I guess much of the Western world) so well. The suggestion that just because one is a feminist, you must hate all men drives me absolutely crazy- because I don’t. I don’t hate men at all. However, I question, and will continue to question, why men continue to have a priveledge in life that so many woman aren’t privy to. It’s not about men, or wanting to take anything away from them, it’s about wanting women to have the exact same opportunities.

  2. Cléa Says:

    I’ve heard the percentile thing from my sibling and I nearly gagged! For god’s sake, I love the little one to bits but this kind of parental competition is taking things too far.

  3. blue milk Says:

    Aw thanks for the lovely link.

    Yes that baby weight thing is dreadful, I can’t believe the unhealthy obsession with ‘thin’ and how early we introduce it to our children’s lives. We as a society hate ‘fat’ sooo much that now we can’t even handle roly poly ever so gorgeous baby fat. We have such a body image problem going on!

  4. M Says:

    amanda – yes, I think there is this weird connection in the minds of some between having your say and being frustrated with the status quo and mistaking that for hate. I don’t see why. Maybe it’s just very convenient to say ‘feminists hate men’ (ie: shift the focus) when really they might actually mean “I hate feminists” which in itself is an extremely explosive thing to admit.

    clea – I never thought that my friends would be competative with each other. In fact we all laughed about it when we saw it in other parents but as soon as the little ones started arriving it was guns blazing all the way! It makes me glad not to have babies with them.

    blue – you’re one of the great feminist mother bloggers. It annoys me when people so ignorantly imply that because one is a mum, or one decides to stay at home with their child etc then she can’t be a feminist. Just goes to show how little people know about feminism! People should go and read you and help destroy the myth of a feminist being only a certain way!

    The fat hate in society is the one true discrimination we have left where’s it’s STILL seen as okay to have this kind of hate! I mean we all know it’s NOT okay to be racist, and it’s NOT okay to be misogynistic and it’s NOT okay to be homophobic (and sure these things still exist BIG time but we all know it’s not right to be thus) however it’s still quite okay to hate fat people – even if it’s on little babies! And we have this idea of ‘normal’ that actually ISN’T normal at all. When you look at little N people will immediately say that he’s too big or too chubby but lo and behold he’s completely NORMAL – but we don’t recognise that. We’re trained to assume that normal is too fat. It’s very interesting.

  5. Steph Says:

    Oh fuck I LOVE YOU!!! You are friggin fierce, and fiesty and say what I wanna say sooo much better.

    I consider myself a femmo. Yeah in my bright pink hooker dress babby!! I’m a lipstick Feminst :P We’re not all the same, but at heart I believe we hold all the same things dear, just some of us say it louder and longer than others.
    I adore men. I love being a girly girl, but I demand the same rights as any guy, I pay my own way and want the same freedoms and privileges they enjoy.
    Hola!!!

  6. M Says:

    steph – I know you are a femmo and I love that you’re not afraid to say so! I think there would only be very little – slim to none in fact – difference between our feminist beliefs. We’re not only on the same page but the same line even – you’re right in that us femmos hold true the same core beliefs.

  7. egan Says:

    I just asked my wife last week “what does it mean to be a feminist to you?” Her answer was really good, but too long to discuss here. I like how you dove into this topic. My wife is a feminist, but as you and Steph have pointed out, it means such different things to everyone.

    This feminist topic is very hot in our country right now with Hillary Clinton running. Many women are now turning their support away from her and getting told they’re not doing the right thing for the feminist movement. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    I don’t want to ever hear about percentages when it comes to my daughter’s stats. I just don’t care. If she’s healthy, that’s all that matters. I do witness some of the baby girls shouldn’t be big stuff already. It’s a bit sad.

  8. Diane Mandy Says:

    M – where to begin. This post was filled with so many delicious points to agree with. I consider myself feminist, but am not a member of NOW. Nor do I agree with every feminist thought. Stereotyping people–any group– is just wrong. And hateful comments even more wrong. Nice post!

  9. Fever Dog Says:

    I know you do hate men really.

    Which is my way of saying with an awesome entry like this, what could I possibly add to the discussion?

  10. Ant Says:

    Hmmm, I consider myself a feminist. And declaring that in public generally receives the kind of “oh really” look that comes when people also talk about politics or religion.

    But there are different types, some of which I don’t think are terribly constructive. I’ve found that the man-hating brand (which I have to admit I’ve sometimes suspected you of subscribing to) cannot bring themselves to believe that a man can be a feminist.

    I’ve been in more than one argument where the simple fact that I am a man precludes any kind of debate about feminism because they’re just brimming full of anti-male venom and I am therefore “the enemy”.

  11. general_boy Says:

    I’ve never thought of you as a “man hater” Mez, perhaps more a “hater of stupid men”. With you 100% on that one!

    It is a worry people starting to obsess about a baby’s weight, especially given how much all that can change in a short space of time.

    I have a freind who went through the so-called “puppy fat” phase in her teens, and there were all these negative comments made ( even from relatives ) that she was getting a little “chumpy”. She always ate a near perfect diet and was really active. Years later, she is a gym instructor with looks and a body other gym instructors bitch about. She never had a knee-jerk reaction and never changed anything, and her mum never bought into all the bullshit other mums and kids at school tried to offload onto her.

    I’ll bet the mums who did obsess didn’t end up with kids as well balanced and healthy ( mentally and physically ) as my freind.

    IMHO, applying this sort of hysteria to infants is verging on obscene.

  12. hidingbehind Says:

    Gawd I can’t imagine being sensitive about your baby’s weight! Amelia has been in the 90th percentile since she was born, but that’s fine! If she starts getting OVER the 100th percentile, then I’ll worry. So long s she is within the coloured part of the graph in the health care book, all is good as far as I am concerned. Honestly, I just don’t get it!

    I don’t know whether to call myself a feminist or not, I never have. I would just like to see everyone being equal, but it’s not just women, it’s race, upbringing, political views, religious views, and it will never happen… Ugh I won’t go into it this morning, I have a headache.

    And I hate Babes in Toyland LOL… My brother LOVES them.

    Would you ever date a younger guy? you and my friend would get along so well *wink*

  13. spew-it-all Says:

    Interesting, when i was at uni in Sydney, my lecturer told me that the subject study: women studies was changed as it gives perception to people as male-basher. In fact, it is more about sexuality which involves male and female as well as others.

    I haven’t met any feminists who have radical view such as heterosexual relationship is a rape or the men are the biggest threat for women. However, i do believe these kind of people exist and may perhaps have shaped people’s mind on what constitutes feminism.

  14. Kat Wilder Says:

    Mez, new moms analyze everything about their baby; well, the first one anyway, or so I’ve been told. Second one’s on his own …

    There are many definitions of “feminism,” but I believe true feminists are all about making a better world for women and men. They kinda go hand in hand.

  15. M Says:

    egan – I think the democrat race is a very interesting one for gender and race. It’s interesting because of that thing you outlined – should feminists really support women and should the blacks really only support Obama? It’s easy to theorise about the wrongs an rights of who to vote for but in the end everyone’s politics are so personal. I don’t see why a femmo SHOULD vote Clinton – perhaps there’s also that argument that she never made a big (public) fuss over Bill’s infidelity. So in that case maybe feminists SHOULDN’T vote her. I don’t know, it’s so personal.

    I’d love to hear your wife’s dirty femmo take on things.

    diane – I find the hateful comments say much more about the person saying them than anything else. I know that’s a cliche but it’s also very true. I wonder about the politics of people who read only CERTAIN things into an entry.

    jay – yes, I’m trying to cover up my big dirty hate for men because god knows I just hate my bro and I hate all those awesome male bloggers that I’m dedicated to and I just hate all those men who make me smile on a daily basis. :P Yep, so much hate.

    ant – I’m reading your comment then I’m reading Gboy’s and you have two such different interpretations of my point of view.

    In any case – I think I’ve said more on the subject of what I find wrong with how women are then how men are. Maybe I’m an anti-womanist or something. But I could do an official tally in my spare time if you really want proof on the matter. hehe.

    Sure men can be feminists. Whether I align myself with any kind of feminist depends on whether our overall politics match or not. I certainly don’t align myself with ALL feminists because well, women are so different.

    gb – Yes, not even stupid men, it’s men who abuse women – whether it be emotionally or physically. That’s where I draw the line. It’s very specific. For the record I don’t condone the same for women doing so to men either.

    children always take on their parent’s neurosis. If a mum is obsessed about the size of her own dinner portions (ie: measuring portions etc) then that kid has no hope at all of really having a relaxed and healthy view of food. It’s what we don’t say that matters a lot, as well as what we do.

    life – haha, I’m not big on the youngies I have to admit. No toy boys for me. Makes me cringe a bit to tell you the truth – however, ask me again when I’m 40 ;)

    I agree with you on wanting equality all round. It’s so important.

    spewitall – Femmo studies is essentially gender studies. Anything that affects the way that women are viewed also has all bearing on how men are perceived too.

    I think that view on feminism has changed a lot since the very early days. Even Andrea Dworkin who is often touted as claiming that all sex is rape never actually said that. In fact she continued to be very close to many men until her death. It’s a great way of shifting the focus from the real argument by saying ‘you’re a man hater’ or something like that. It’s effectively taking everything away from the main point of view which might actually be about garnering equality for both sexes. It’s sad/ingnorance when people say it.

    kat – yes I agree. There are many types and in the end that’s exactly what it’s about.

  16. hidingbehind Says:

    He’s a month older than my husband…. but yeah, still a few years younger than us old women hey? LOL

  17. Sarah Says:

    This is completely different than the baby weight convos that I hear in the States. It’s all “my baby is in the 98th-percentile and that makes him BEST!” Meanwhile I’m thinking about all that prepackaged food with preservatives and growth hormones.

  18. egan Says:

    Yep, hang tight Mez as it’s about to get very interesting here. I was giving Hillary the benefit of the doubt until recently. She’s done some underhanded things that rub me the wrong way.

    I will try to share my wife’s dirty femmo take on the world some day.

  19. sublime-ation Says:

    Babes, yeah!
    I’ve never heard that that was about Courtney Love, ‘Bruise Violet’ was the one that everyone always thought was…
    I like early BIT, not so keen on that album though so don’t know much about it.
    Have you heard Kat’s new band Katatrosphy Wife?

  20. M Says:

    life – hahaha, OOPS! I’m feeling very old lately.

    sarah – hahah, maybe ‘the bell curve’ normal distribution is a really hard concept for some Americans.

    egan – yes, so I hear! There’s no place for fuckwittery in politics.

    oh waiiiii… well, maybe there shouldn’t be a place for fuckwittery in politics anyway.

    sublime – I think it might have come from the video clip which was taken as a reference to her.

    I’m not big on that album either but I just ADORE sweet 69. I think To Mother is probably my favourite, very raw.

    I haven’t heard her new band. Are they any good?

  21. belongum Says:

    It simply does my head in that we have to apply a unit of measure against the babies anyway… if the bub is healthy, putting on weight appropriately, and is active – who the heel cares about yet another measuring system?

    It does nothing but create worry and anxiety for a lot of mums – you keep questioning your bubs supposed weight – all the while freaking out about what you do feed them, or what you don’t!

    Gives me the proper irrits M… fair dinkum!

    I once did a unit at uni called Women in Society. My course advisor pushed me int oit – mainly because it was a unit that didn’t have an exam at the end of the semester. I was studying Vet Science – so I needed to build the appropriate number of points across the compulsory units – and was encouraged to use units such as this one to bolster my course.

    About 150 women or so, and only three of us men! That first lecture was a Man gutting fest. It didn’t matter what for or how or why, just venting mostly – but man (lol) it was scary! The next lecture – I was the only man still there. I actually stayed and finished the unit, and got high distinctions (one of the few).

    The lecture were frightening, so I simply sat through them – but the tutes were amazing. Wow! I got to see how the subject matter – the unit itself and how it was delivered – shaped the way people partook in it. It was an emotive unit – and for bloody god reason, but I fought my way though it and passed.

    Found out at the end that all the lecturing and tutorial staff had a book running on me, I asked about the winnings – but funnily enough – I never heard a thing back lol!

    I think men CAN be involved in good talks about you women type peoples lol… it’s all meant to be about balance, and whilst I know it’s been out of balance for far too long in favour of the fella, you can’t make it better by driving women (and men) way over to the other side.

    Hmmmm – good post mate!

    Cheers ;-)

  22. sublime-ation Says:

    To Mother. *sigh*

    So good. My fave is Fontanelle though.

    Yeah, think the new band’s pretty good. It’s with her husband. She’s just so fucking amazing. When they came to Melbs many moons ago I met Lori and Maureen, but Kat was visiting her relatives here. That sucked, but it’s cool she’s kinda part Aussie!

  23. Bonnie Conquest Says:

    I love babies and I love saying oh my gawd s/he is SO FAT! Because I know this is typically an indication of health and I wanna infer that the parents are doing the right thing – feeding the babe so it’s growing! Damn your baby is FAT! And cute!

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